EcomCrew Podcast

E151: SEO Tactics for eCommerce with Katrina McKinnon

Getting into ecommerce is tough–it's a low margin business and it's saturated with competition from big and small names alike. In order to break into the game you need to have a lot of resources, with cash being one of the most important.

But when Katrina McKinnon started her ecommerce business 10 years ago, she didn't have a lot of money. There were already big names operating in her niche and not having money for paid traffic is a huge disadvantage. So she did what she knew she can do well–attract organic traffic using excellent content.

In today's episode Katrina shares with us some SEO techniques she used to drive traffic to her content over the years in her business. These techniques are so effective that her business was able to afford her a nice house, nice cars, and good education for her kids–all through organic traffic.

Here are some conversation points:

  • How Katrina and I met
  • Her background and how she started in ecommerce
  • How Google is moving away from plain old search results
  • How to leverage different types of content to get to the first page of Google's search results
  • Image pack and featured snippets

Aside from being an SEO expert, Katrina also works on connecting business owners with virtual assistants who are vetted and trained in ecommerce. She runs eCommerce University where aspiring virtual assistants learn about ecommerce. Successful graduates of the program are then vetted and listed on eCommerce Expert where business owners can hire them. If you're in need of someone to help you in your business without having to train them in ecommerce yourself, check out eCommerce Expert.

Resources mentioned:

Facebook Messenger Webinar
EcomCrew Premium
Schema App

Thanks for listening to this episode! Until the next one, happy selling.

Full Audio Transcript

Mike: This is Mike, and welcome to episode number 151 of the EcomCrew Podcast. You can go to to get to the show notes for this episode. And today I have a good friend of mine Katrina on the show with me. She's someone that I met back in Ecommerce Fuel Live. It seems like a decade ago, but it was only a couple years ago. But we really hit it off because we were both speaking at an event for the first time and we were both nervous wrecks, and we have a lot of camaraderie right from the get go.

But she's also a brilliant young lady and got a great attitude and a great sense of humor. I really enjoy hanging out with her. I wish that she didn't live all the way up in Australia so we can spend more time together. But we were able to finally get her on the podcast. And today we're going to be talking about some SEO tactics that you can use for your e-commerce websites, and she also talks about some cool things she's got going on with e-commerce, she’s got VAs and stuff like that. So I hope you guys really enjoy this episode. We're going to get right into it right after the break.

Mike: Hey Katrina, welcome to the EcomCrew Podcast.

Katrina: Thank you very much for having me today. I am very excited to be talking to you and also to your audience.

Mike: I want to thank you for waking up at ridiculous o'clock. I had to type into my browser to hear what time is it in Sydney and it's like 6:00 AM over there. So you must be at least on your first cup of coffee by now.

Katrina: Oh yes, it’s cup of tea actually this time in the morning, but it's fine because the Serbians in my team are actually awake. So I've been talking to them anyway while I’ve been waiting for you.

Mike: Okay excellent. Well, I just want to introduce you to everybody and how we met. We met originally at Ecommerce Fuel Live back in 2016. I’m bad with years and time but I think it was 2016. It was a while ago now.

Katrina: Yeah.

Mike: And we were both out in the hall pacing because I think both of us at that time were just getting into public speaking. And it's funny to look back at now because the last time I went to talk here, it barely even bothers me at all. I was actually almost looking forward to speaking, but back then there was at the back of the room [overlapping 00:03:09]. Yeah I was completely freaking out.

Katrina: I’ve heard now, I haven't seen it like since but I’ve heard that you're an absolute pro at it now. But that first talk you did made such a massive impact on the audience. Everyone was just astounded at the detail of your marketing pipeline and the result that you'd gotten there, and it's had work. You had literally just worked at it. Everyone was just totally blown away by that talk.

Mike: Yeah well thank you I appreciate that first of all. And I think like anything else like you put hard work in anything and you can get results. The speaking thing specifically even talking about that is like another one of those examples where I didn't know what I was doing at all. But I think at this point I’ve been able to pull it off. I’ve actually been one of the top few rated speakers at each of the last two talks I’ve given. So that shows that if you work at anything you can do it.

Katrina: But if you genuinely share, like I know that that seems to be good sometimes when the books are to get good at public speaking, but I think if you genuinely share how you do things and your results, it gives people a lot more.

Mike: Yeah I totally agree. I mean there's obviously two frames of mind. Some people are very guarded about things, they don't want to share because they're afraid they're going to copied or ripped off or whatever, which is definitely I can understand that frame of mind. But for me it's like I don't care about that. I want to enjoy what I'm doing and have fun doing it. And I think that what goes around comes around eventually and there's been so many doors that have opened because of these speaking gigs.

I mean just being able to meet someone like you as a for instance is like a testament to that. We never would have met. I would have seen you because you spoke there, I might have said hi but I would have been about it. We wouldn't have had that instant connection and here we are today.

Katrina: Here we are.

Mike: Here we are so we have a fun topic today. I'm actually really excited about this because we haven't talked about SEO and content marketing a lot on the podcast even though it's something that I'm really passionate about. We have a couple of content sites, things like as a for instance that do nothing but content marketing. But we also focus on content marketing with something like ColorIt where we’ll rank number one for something like best colored pencils for instance and things like that that we go after that are really important.

And we were just talking real quick before getting on this call in how e-commerce is just a tough game because it's such a low margin business. And yeah you can do direct response ads or PPC but they're tough because it's like we’ve been arbitraged to death at this point. It's really hard to make money there. But organic traffic over the last 15 years keeps on giving which is kind what we want to talk about today and how to do that. So yeah I mean you want to kick it off with some ideas. I mean we have one idea specifically we want to talk about today, but go ahead and roll with it.

Katrina: Yeah so I think a lot of new e-commerce entrepreneurs are trying to break into the game, they got a great idea, they got a great product, and they don't necessarily have a budget. And I was like that. Before I started my — I have a gazebo store where I sell very large things that are made of metal and plastic that get shipped all around Australia. And when I first started that — this was like ten years ago, and I was also running a web agency. And I didn't have a lot of time or money to put into that store and definitely didn't have a lot of money.

And so I did what I knew I could do which was content. And so subsequently that story just keeps rolling along ten years now later. It's not doing millions of dollars a year, like it's not like you guys who absolutely dominate a particular market in that our store is a lot smaller here. But that store has allowed me to buy a house and put my kids into very good schools and to buy nice cars and things like that because it's all organic traffic.

So we’ve only ever experimented once. We've had traffic on the gazebo store, but everything else has come from organic. And because it was a reasonably old domain that helped, but we did a lot of really long form content. So we would do things like really just easy stuff like 100 ways to gazebo. That's one of our top ranking pieces of content. And so just the fact that we've got the keyword in the URL, we got it in the headline, and then we literally got 100 photos of people's gazebos in their back gardens and we got them all from Google and from the Pinterest and sort of other sort of sites.

It’s like we site back to the source. But having a huge amount of different content and that’s what I want to also share with EcomCrew audience today is that different type of content is actually quite easy to do and it can be done by a VA or by yourself as an entrepreneur. But it's different and it has this really long term effect.

Mike: Yeah, I mean I think that it's really smart and I think the problem is that people give up on this strategy because it does take a while to take effect. To kind of start ranking number one for something is not an overnight success story typically unless you have an established website that already has a bunch of inbound links that can be easier that way. But I call this the writing yourself effect. And we talked about this on a recent podcast as well.

When you're first getting started like you're putting all this effort into a long form blog post that has a lot of content in it and a lot of value, but you're the only one that reads it because no one is coming yet. But eventually Google figures the stuff out. They are really smart and they start showing the better content up higher. And actually with their new algorithm, this is becoming even more and more prominent now. So eventually over time, six, 12, 18, 24 months down the road whatever it might be, once it starts to kick in you kind of start experiencing the hockey stick growth.

Katrina: Yeah and we call it the snowball effect because for these tiles to snowball it certainly captures part of that together with my hands but now roll it down the hill and it gets its own momentum. And it's frustrating because sometimes you got to give the little snowball a sort of a little push along. That's the best way I can describe it because what we do is we just make a couple more snowballs and some of them don’t. Some of them don't kick off, and it is a waiting game and it’s a patience game.

And I think as well if you're very to e-commerce or to internet sort of marketing, you don't have that self assuredness, you don't have that experience to know that it will take off. Google is very good to us and has been for a long time and we are not crack SEOs or anything like that, we just do good content, lots of it and easy content. We very rarely do those super long form posts that are really hard to write. We do simple stuff and so that's what I suppose I would like to share today is exactly what we do.

But to give everyone an example we can talk about the image packs. So I mentioned this in just another forum recently about how we do this. So shall I jump into that?

Mike: Yeah let's do it. First explain to people what image park is. Is there like an example where people can easily find out there since this audio podcast?

Katrina: Yeah sure. So even at Google everyone will have noticed that Google is migrating away from just plain old search results. So it used to be at the top something like first aid kits you could type, so one of the things that we sell in a different part of our business is first aid kits. And it used to be at just top first aid kits, and the search engine would just show all place text results. And then everyone in the audience is really familiar with they paid ads so the AdWords.

Those are ads that appear at the top of the search results and usually at the bottom as well. And then also things like Google will now show things like a map or Google will show things like perhaps some questions and answers. And so Google was experimenting with different types of content that can maybe help the searcher with their request and not just showing text any more. And one of the results that they are showing are images. So you can type in first aid kits.

So let’s say you're in an office, you’re the HR person or you are the admin and you want a little — you want a sign to printout in the kitchen that's just a first aid sign that shows where the first aid kit is. So there are thousands of searches looking for first aid sign. Now a sign is a picture, and so that's what shows up in these pins, this part of the result which is called an image pack. These are all the pictures that show up in an image pack. And the image pack is never on page four or page ten of the search results. It’s always up on there, it’s the very top of the search results is there’s no ads or it’s within the score [ph] view like within the first couple of scores. So that's what an image pack is.

Mike: Yeah, so I mean if you got a second to pull your car over or look on your desktop if you're there, first aid sign is a good example, first aid poster was another one I had here as we were talking I was just kind of doing some hunting and pecking exact examples. So first aid sign, the first result here first three rows are just image results of original stuff that people have done.

That's the key I think is it's got to be stuff that's not already out there which is why we put a lot of effort into original photography another side thing here. But if you can get into some more detail now that people know exactly what the image pack is, how do you get there and why is it important to be there?

Katrina: Yeah, so it's important to data because it helps fill out your results with Google. So Google has a look at how many areas in the search results that you show up. So if you’re just showing up in the ads or if you’re just showing up in the text area, you can also show up as question and answers because all you're doing is you're really just following Google's rules to compliance with how they run their search.

That's been our experience is we’ve always avoided anything black hat. We just follow Google's rules for what they say they want in terms of content and how the content should be presented. And then it just automatically shows up in the search results for the page that we want. So what it also helps with is domain authority because Google's got the sort of kind of list of hundreds of factors that it uses in which to rank us all in order in its search engines and something also called a quality score in the AdWords campaigns.

And it takes into account all these factors like whether you've got spammy websites linking to you, how many websites you've got linking to you, whether they're really good quality websites. It also takes into account how many pages you've got, how much content you've got, all these different things I'm sure people know about. But the image packs are an easy way to get good quality back links and also to help with the domain authority.

So image packs are just two or three like a handful of those guidelines being followed really well. And if Google has got hundreds of these guidelines that we've got to follow, we're just going to knock them off bit by bit. We'll never get to the end; we’ll never do all of them. But the image packs help us to just make some inroads into a few of those quality scoring aspects.

Mike: Yeah I mean if you're doing things that the competition is not doing and you’re checking up all the boxes, all ten different boxes, then it adds up to a significant amount when you're talking about doing one of the little things by itself it doesn't make a difference, but all the stuff added up definitely does make a pretty big difference.

Katrina: Yeah so one of the things that if you think about it let’s say we’re selling first aid kits, so that’s our primary keyword. If we could rank for first aid kit really high that would be brilliant. In Australia we've got this huge competitor that is a household name, they are a charity, they sell first aid kits, every single Australian knows who they are. So for us — and they’ve got thousands, tens of thousands of back links because they’re such a well known massive charity. They are like Red Cross, you guys know the Red Cross as well.

Mike: Right.

Katrina: And that’s the first aid kit. So for us to compete against a giant like that, we've gotten a chance in the normal search engine results. So we’ve sort of got to do a little bit of a sideways move and it's not a bad, I’m not saying it's a negative thing, it's just a sideways move. So if you think about our first primary keyword is first aid kit, if we combine first aid which is the real core of that primary keyword, if we combine that with secondary keywords such as poster or sign or guide or how to or infographic or there’s all these different formats for creating these different combinations of keywords.

So once you combine poster with first aid you've got first aid poster, first aid sign, first aid guide, how to first aid. And so that then expands your repertoire of keywords that you can create content around. And then this is the crux of this whole idea is that once you've got first aid poster for example, that can be created in a JPEG format, that can be created in a GIF, you can do it in a TIFF, in an illustrated file, a Photoshop file, you can do it in a PDF. So there are all these different ways of presenting a first aid poster.

Then of course — so now we're up to maybe eight different file types, eight different files. But then first aid poster, you can have it with the arrow to the left, arrow to the right, arrow down, arrow up, double arrows. And so now you’ve extrapolated that out into 80 [ph] places of content. And so can you see how that grows when you then apply that same sort of methodology with that just the idea to the word first aid guide or first aid sign?

Mike: Yeah.

Katrina: You start to be able to create a lot of content. That comes back to that idea, that original idea on our gazebo store where we had one 100 ways to gazebo. It meant that we were able to create a lot of content that was all aligned with Google's rules. We've got keywords in the attribute, we've got keywords in the funnel line, we've got keywords surrounding. And I mean this is not keyword stuffing, it's just what goes on files [inaudible 00:18:27].

And so I suppose that's the crux of it is that you're able to create a lot of content quite easily by simply using technology, just the internet as it is with all the file names and the different keywords and the primary and the secondary keywords combining them all.

Mike: Yeah I think it's brilliant. One of things that we talk about a lot, I’m going to throw in here another curveball [ph] or idea. We take this and then we make it into a lead magnet. So I mean we were big proponents on using an asset more than once because it takes time to do what you just talked about. But if you take that and package it into a PDF, now you have a Facebook ad you can potentially run to businesses that might be looking for first aid kits and you download our free first aid kit lead magnet or whatever, then you get their email address and deliver the content to them that way, ensure it lives someplace else so they can get for free as well.

But like you’re still giving it to them for free but now you got their email address and you could market to them that way. And I think that you even talked about this at one point about how when they get to these pages you can still have offers and things like that on the page. So what are some of the things that you've done there in that regard?

Katrina: We've got a workplace compliance guide, so one of the things that people who are buying first aid kits in their business they have to comply to buy is a first aid kit usually not to say that the client doesn’t have, but because they have to comply with certain regulations that if an employee shocks or breaks an arm they need to have a sling. So they have to comply and so we then make these very tasty compliance guides. It’s called beginner’s guide to workplace compliance.

And it’s just a step by step and a lot of the content again is taken from government regulations, but when they get that, it’s like they come in for this thing that they thought they need which is just this first aid sign, and then they sort of say, well is this really super valuable PDF there like a content that will really help me in my job. And so that creates trust. So we can create trust by simply providing them with a first aid sign or poster or whatever because they just sort of come in, they grab it and they go.

But the people that stick around and say, well actually a workplace guide because where we're tapping facilities managers, human resources managers, people like that who manage the office or manage the personnel. That’s been laid into these better piece of content that is like a perfect match for their job and that's how we get their e-mail address and then we can start a relationship.

And Mike that is such a hugely important thing that I'm trying to get across to people when I talk about sort of what we do is it's about relationships. It's about creating a relationship that's not just about shopping ads into AdWords and just trying to get your metrics right with that. It’s also relationships.

Mike: Yeah, and I completely agree. It sounds like you've been to one of my last talks or vice versa. I mean we started where we hit it off and have such a — our interests are solely in line of the way we think. I mean I think this is so important. I think back to the way that I used to do online marketing which is exactly what you're talking about. You look at a single click relationship, like you get someone to click through PPC, and that's like the end of the relationship, but you can do so much more these days.

Hey guys I just want to take a break for just a second to tell you about our new subscription service called EcomCrew Premium which you can find at Again this is a subscription service, so we’re giving you all of our courses that we've ever done, all the courses we're doing in the future along with twice monthly webinars. We have one webinar that's a strict Q&A; you can ask us anything you want.

And another webinar we're taking a deep dive behind the scenes every month showing you exact products that we're launching, exact landing pages we’re using, and Facebook ads. It's like being a fly on the wall in Dave and I's business. I think you guys are going to really enjoy that. If that wasn’t enough, you also get direct e-mail access to Dave and I to ask any questions you might have. So go to find out more about that today, now let's get back to the episode.

Katrina: And it's hard to explain to non-technical people that domain authority or the fact that we've given them 619 really high quality back links is gold because it's customer service, it's customer service gold as opposed to just being here, gone tomorrow PPC click, no relationship.

Mike: Yeah it's like lighting tissue paper on fire is either you get what you needed out of it or you don't, and it happens like that quickly. If you can't get the sale that quickly then they've moved on.

Katrina: Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way.

Mike: Yeah so let's talk about — we have I think time for one other like concept and idea which I'm excited to talk about. So one of the things we were talking about is basically the featured snippet part of Google which is like a new thing now. And as you were talking about like Google is taking up more and more real estate on what I would call like the non-organic results. You got sponsored product ads and all kinds of you know the image packs that we were talking about, just other things that are nontraditional search results.

And one of the things that they are trying to do is just basically answer your question without having to even necessarily click through anything anymore. Like you type in something like what time is it in Australia and it just pops up the answer to you for instance. But there's also kind of a middle ground to this where you can type in a query and it gives you like the first few sentences of an article which I think is really powerful. So let’s spend a couple of minutes talking about this concept.

Katrina: Yeah so the featured snippets area. I mean again this is just Google experimenting. Well not experimenting because lot of it is quite solid but this is Google trying to find different ways to serve customers. And with the advent of mobile phones, we know that mobile phones are massively important because most I think I don’t know about you guys but most, about half of our traffic now comes from mobile search. And so all that means is that people are using and everyone is digesting content in very different ways.

And so it used to be that you would just write content, but now there’s ways to provide content. So Google doesn't produce content, it gets content from all the rest of us. And so there are now snippets with these like there’s question and answer snippet which is used in the Google home. And so what Google is trying to do is it's trying to serve all these mobile or cell phone — you guys sell on cell phones all day — cell phone people with very short quick content.

And a lot of the content that's consumed these are the video which is why you know Google acquired YouTube and has such a focus on that because a lot of people watch YouTube videos on the go while they’re commuting, that's how they consume content. And there’s also there's a couple of people in our community as well who do really great content in the e-commerce community who do really great content, and they show up for the Q&A section, so what is what is a cell phone booster for example.

And they said answer which Google has extracted from these e-commerce stores to provide the answer of what is it. And you can use structured content in all those sorts of places. You can optimize those scores to ensure that you're following all of Google's rules and by just using subheadings that are Q&A stuff by having a question as a sub heading and in the very first sentence being a succinct answer. When Google crawls that, it will start to use that type of content from you in its results. So that's another way of also getting a little bit of an edge without having to write rims and rims and rims of content.

Mike: Yeah so just to go through like step by step here, if it's like an audio podcast, if I search specifically like on Google right now what is a cell phone booster, there's three ads which Google is always going to have their ads. But then the first organic result is this featured snippet. So it just says here, a signal booster takes a week cell signal 3G and our 4G, amplifies it multiple times at the 32X and then rebroadcast the booster signal to an area in need inside your home or car.

A thing that's interesting is it also bolds certain words like booster, cell, cell phone because those are part of the query that I made. So it's like it's really hard to miss. And then on top of it, there's an image here that is a part of all this. And that this links to which I assume is an e-commerce store which it is and I’m looking at it. And it's basically this article that they wrote that isn't even really that in-depth but it's good.

I mean it has good images, the top five guarantees of a cell phone booster, benefits of a cell phone booster, how it works like an image here, and it answers the question of what is a cell phone booster. And lo and behold down below it is you can buy some cell phone boosters in there for $400 or $550 here.

Katrina: Someone selling something.

Mike: Yeah exactly yeah. So I mean do you have any more insight on exactly what people can do structurally on a page like this to help to get that featured snippet?

Katrina: Yeah there's a whole markup. If you just typed how to do featured snippets into Google, Google has a hell content that shows you how to do the structured markup. There are lots of plug-ins that will help you do it. I don't know about Shopify specifically because we’re on BigCommerce, but there are instructions that you can give to any reasonable web developer and they can insert, they can essentially insert the structured aspects that Google is looking for.

What Google is basically asking us to do now is it asks us to put in a couple of lines of code into our websites into our e-commerce stores that essentially points to these featured snippets. And it points it out so that Google gets a clue that that was the question and this is a quick answer. But yeah it’s probably too in-depth to go into right now in terms of exactly how that might be done.

But if the audience just Google how do I get featured snippets, you'll find the instructions. You can give that to any reasonable web developer and they'll be able to make structural changes to your website to ensure that it happens. But of course you've got to have the content there first before that to be in use.

Mike: Yeah and I did a quick search while you were doing that. There is an app called Schema app, I haven't used it because we actually have this hard coded in our theme, but it looks like you can buy this app for Shopify, and it looks like it's 15 bucks a month and then you can create custom fields and add structured data stuff in there. And it’ll make a big difference in your rankings and give you a much higher chance of getting that featured snippet.

So if you have terms that are already on the first page, I highly recommend starting with these things first because those are the ones that have the biggest chance of getting that featured snippet. And it's a second spot in the search results. So if you have the featured snippet up there on top, you'll still have your other organic ranking wherever it might be on the page. It might be third, fourth, fifth or whatever. So you keep that and you get the structured data snippet at the top.

So in this case with the Wilson Amplifiers one, they rank third for this cell phone booster thing, but they rank up at the top because they're the only ones probably that have taken the time to put in the Schema data. So it's always like anything else. If you are first ones to be doing something that's new and this isn't really even new anymore but it's still new to most people. So if you go through and take the time to do this, it could be a huge rankings booster especially on your content pages.

Katrina: And it sounds very technical and I think some people get daunted, but it's really just a matter of getting it done and just working it out. It's not — I don't want to sort of think, sometimes I think that conversations get very technical about SEO or whatever but it's really not hard. You just got to ask the questions and then start to explore it. And then the more you ask questions about it, the more you learn about it, then you just chip away at it.

And so it's certainly achievable but you just got to chip away at it. And it's also good if you can get a little bit of help in the form of a good web developer or someone to help you with it, but you do have to just keep chipping away at it.

Mike: I agree yeah definitely. Cool Katrina, well we try to keep these at 30 minutes. Already it’s amazing we pulled through 30 minutes already but before we sign up, I want to give people an opportunity to find you if they're looking for you because you have a couple of really awesome websites and services, and I want to give you a chance to talk about this for just a minute.

Katrina: Sure, we’ve launched, recently we’ve launched a thing called Ecommerce University. One of the frustrations that I've had is over the years I've been employing people, and what happened we got a team of 16, all offshore which is just fantastic. But over the years I've had to train everyone to learn how to use BigCommerce or learn how do content marketing or learn how to do all this sort of stuff. And over the years I’ve built up all these basically these training manuals.

And it was around about time that we needed to actually that I publish them all online because people would sort of say, how do you do this, and I would say, oh here is my process, this is how I do this, this is how I train my team to do it. And then everyone loved the idea. And so I just sort of thought, well I put that on a domain and so it's Ecommerce.University. It's a funny domain but We've got 800 students who are enrolled right now, it's actually 814, we want to be specific.

Mike: Nice.

Katrina: Enrolled right now. And we've got the first cohort has graduated. We released all the graduates in another website called Ecommerce.Expert, and they are getting jobs. So within our community, we belong to an e-commerce community together, and we've had I don’t know maybe 30 or 40 people who have been hired and the feedback, and I mean I know it sounds like I'm just saying these, but the feedback has been amazing. I thought that we would have problems where people would say, oh they don't know this or your graduates don't know this, your graduates don’t know that. We haven’t had anything like that.

And the graduates, the students are just loving the course. And again like things that I thought were really obvious, we teach people how to sit at their desk and stat at their desk and work efficiently. We teach from everything from how to use Shopify or how to do content writing to image pack sort of level. We teach everything technical right down to this is how to put your time in a time sheet so that your boss creates — you have a trusting relationship with your boss.

And that was the stuff that really surprised me as well was that people loved, absolutely loved it and they’ve change their behaviors about the way they work in the industry. So yeah so if people are interested I would love the support because at the moment it's a labor of love at the moment, but yeah we've got — we're getting some really interesting things happening over there.

Mike: So people who are looking to hire a remote person, you have like a library of people there at Ecommerce.Expert, so, no dot com Ecommerce.Expert.

Katrina: That’s right.

Mike: And how many listings are there as of recording this right now?

Katrina: About 60, 70, something like that maybe 50, I don’t know. It changes as people as people leave, as people get hired we’ll remove some and add more.

Mike: Yeah will definitely check that out. And I can definitely vouch for what Katrina is saying. We're both members of Ecommerce Fuel together, again that's how we met was at the live event. And you’ll post on there every now and then when you have someone available for hire and the comments I always see are very positive. So I can definitely vouch for that and congratulations on getting to this point. I know these labors of love can seem like very difficult at this point, but I'm sure if you stick with it it's going to be successful long term.

Katrina: Yeah no it’s fantastic. I get emails and Facebook messages from people and they say, you changed my life, I've got a job now. And I just go, well okay I'm going to keep going, I’ll keep doing it, it’s changing their lives.

Mike: Yeah, I can really relate to it as someone who has 13 people now over in the Philippines. It's completely changed our lives for the better. I mean I don't know what I would do without that team including I don't know how this podcast would get edited and posted without them because they do that too. They're amazing.

Katrina: Absolutely.

Mike: Cool. Well it's been awesome having you on the show today. I want to thank you again and let's catch up again in a few months and let people know how Ecommerce University and Expert is going and maybe share some other tidbits with us.

Katrina: Yeah I would love that. That would be great. Thank you for having me.

Mike: No problem.

And that's a wrap. I want to thank Katrina again for coming on, doing this at like six o'clock or five o'clock in the morning whatever time it was over in Australia. I know that it was really early for her and I really appreciate her doing it, but man, what a great guest. Again I wish that she lived closer because she's a fun girl to hang out with and really, really smart. So go to If you have any questions about this episode you can go to the show notes. And until the next episode everybody, happy selling, and we'll talk to you then.

Michael Jackness

Michael started his first business when he was 18 and is a serial entrepreneur. He got his start in the online world way back in 2004 as an affiliate marketer. From there he grew as an SEO expert and has transitioned into ecommerce, running several sites that bring in a total of 7-figures of revenue each year.

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