Today’s guest is Jamie Futscher, the awesome person behind SpiritedGifts.com. Jamie’s also a part of my main mastermind group and someone I consider to be a really good friend.
You’ll hear her say that I know more about her business than most people. And as someone privileged enough to have had that insight on what she does, I can say that she’s truly an inspiring person.
Jamie has bulldozed down tough challenges to be able to grow her business to where it is today. She shares insights on her journey as a female entrepreneur.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Jamie’s take on female priorities and how that plays into ecommerce (5:03)
- How the ‘4-Hour Work Week’ got her started as an entrepreneur (8:01)
- How she got to engraving her products (11:36)
- How she’s dealt with struggles related to scaling her business (16:19)
- How she’s hired a new manager (18:13)
- What the holidays are like for her and her company (23:59)
EPISODES ON TRACTION:
I hope you enjoyed the fifth instalment of this podcast for our Women’s Month celebration. We’d love to see more women in the ecommerce industry, so if you are a female business owner, head over to www.ecomcrew.com/underthehood and tell us your story. We’d love to feature you on the podcast.
Want to get on the podcast and talk about your business? Sign up for the EcomCrew Roadshow today!
If you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them below. Happy selling!
Full Audio Transcript
Mike: This is Mike and welcome to episode #267 of the Ecomcrew podcast. Recording this intro as well from Jackson, Wyoming, out here on the road, if you’re interested in doing the Ecomcrew Roadshow, don’t forget ecomcrew.com/roadshow. I’ll come to your place of business, your home, wherever you operate out off, give you 2 days of consulting, record a podcast and have a good time.
Definitely have been having a good time out here on the road, excited for some of the Ecomcrew Roadshows that we’ve done on this trip and its definitely pretty cool and we’re getting better with each one so if you’re interested in that, and again, its completely free, www.ecomcrew.com/roadshow. Have me come on out to your place, I’ll be all over the country over the next 12 months and hopefully have an opportunity to come see you as well.
So today on the podcast, we recorded this back in California when I was back there a couple of months ago, preparing for this women’s month. Just been having an awesome time doing Ecomcrew’s women’s month. We’ve had amazing entrepreneurs but this entrepreneur is near and dear to my heart just like Daisy who was on earlier this month who is in my mastermind, Jaime is also in my mastermind and we’ve become good friends or at least I consider her to be a good friend, I can’t speak for her.
But I consider Jaime to be a dear friend, she’s been just amazing getting to know and man she’s persevered through the most ridiculous crap and we didn’t get in to all those details on the Podcast because they’re kinda private but I can promise you, she has bulldozed through things that most people would have just given up on and built a mid 7-figure business that produces great profits and has helped support her and everything that she’s doing. I’m just so proud of everything that she’s done, she has a great business. I always tell her about that and we often joke that the grass is always greener because she’s like, “Man, I go through so much crap, I’d rather be you.”
So there’s definitely a component to that but regardless of all that, she’s an amazing person. Always fun to be around and travel with and I wish she wasn’t on the other side of the country that I’m on typically, she’s down in Florida and I’m typically somewhere West of the Mississipi most of the time but we do get to get together at least two or three times a year and that’s always a good time.
So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this interview, Jaime’s built an awesome business doing some unique stuff and I don’t wanna give too much of it away so let’s just get right into the episode with Jaime, so you can hear it firsthand yourself. And again, if you have any comments that you wanna leave at the end of this episode, don’t forget to go over to ecomcrew.com/267 to get to the comments section for this episode.
Alright guys, let’s get into this interview with Jaime.
Mike: Hey Jaime, welcome to the Ecomcrew Podcast.
Jaime: Thank you, good to be here.
Mike: Yeah its great to have you, you are the second person to do Women’s month with me that is also in my main mastermind which has been just an incredible experience for me, its a group of people that — I talk about this before but typically, masterminds have been in the past, something like a Facebook mastermind or an Amazon mastermind but the one that we’re in is more of a general business mastermind and people, relationship type of mastermind.
So we talk about a very diverse group of topics and there’s a very diverse group of people in there but more importantly, we all hold each other accountable and call each other out on our BS which we don’t typically have in our lives so for me its been an absolutely amazing experience and then seeing what everyone’s doing in there just pushes me even harder to want to be like everyone else so its awesome getting to know you on that level and I’m excited to have you on the podcast today.
Jaime: Yeah definitely. You know probably more about my business than most people do, so…
Mike: Yeah well we’ll keep all the sensitive stuff off the podcast because that’s not what we’re here to talk about but I think y’know the main thing that we’re trying to do here with the women’s month on the podcast, I mean obviously, there’s a lot of men that listen too so we want to provide them value, so its just like we usually do where we’ll talk about how businesses get started and the challenges that you have and where you’re at now and how you’re able to support yourself and all that cool stuff but having a woman on doing that vs. one of the countless number of guys, it seems like, are out there doing the same thing. So I think that no matter who you are, it should be a fun episode and you’ll learn about what Jaime’s doing and I mean, I already know like you said a lot about your business, I know you’re crushing it, I am often very jealous of your business even though you just like everyone else, go through trials and tribulations and I think this is a victim of “the grass is always greener”, kind of thing because…
Jaime: Exactly what I was just about to say.
Mike: You probably feel the same way about me so yeah, we’ll get into all that but the first thing that I wanna talk about just briefly is why do you think that there’s such a disproportional number of women and men in e-commerce?
Jaime: I think that women have more different priorities than men, I don’t know that there is such a disproportionate number, I think that women raise families, and that’s a priority for a lot of people, to be there for their children, to be there during their formative years. And I think that is more of a priority for women than it is for men and that shapes our decision in career choices. So I think that’s one thing, I also think that perhaps lifestyle business plays a big part of it as well, so perhaps there are just as many ecommerce stores but they’re small, you just don’t see them as much. They fit into their daily life.
Mike: Right, so I think what you’re trying to say from that perspective is that women are more cognisant of the lifestyle part and they’re gonna be more thinking about their families and their time where men maybe have an ego problem and want to conquer the world and they’re the ones that are out that are trying to make the 7 figure store, 8 figure store, whatever, regardless of the repercussions that that has on their life and on their family.
Jaime: Well, men definitely have bigger egos.
Mike: Yes, I agree.
Jaime: Not all women, I mean I don’t have… I’m not married, I don’t have kids so I obviously don’t fall into that. But yeah I do think that it is a priority, many of my staff are stay at home moms, all of our customer service are stay at home moms, we kind of cater to that lifestyle so I do see that a lot in our team.
Mike: Gotcha, and I wish that Andrew, maybe we can get him to add this to the State of the Merchant next year just to see the proportion of women storeowners to men. Yeah, I have to go by… obviously you’re right, there’s probably not as many women that are willing to take time to go over to China and do those types of things that we’ve done. But I look at some of them like Ecommerce Fuel, and just the number of members that are women in there vs. men and how many of them show up to Ecommerce Fuel live, and its typically significantly more male lopsided than women and the whole purpose of this is just to encourage women to take that leap, and even start the lifestyle business because I think that ecommerce plays really well into that to a certain extent, eventually it will become so big that it will be hard to run it as a lifestyle business.
Jaime: It is your lifestyle.
Mike: Yeah exactly, its definitely been that way for us, that’s for sure and I know for you as well. So, cool, and now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s just talk about the business that you’ve built, because I mean you have done an absolutely incredible job, again I feel like its always a grass is greener thing, but you’ve built a 7-figure, 8-figure business, continuing to grow year over year, have just handled an insane amount of adversity, which is so cool to see people that can deal with that and not let that get them down. And we’ve kinda grown together, we’re constantly working on how to make ourselves better business people and deal with things that we’re not good at and things of that nature and we’ll talk a little bit about that as well but let’s get started with the whole “how did you get started in e-commerce” thing, because obviously you didn’t come out of the womb or come out of college doing e-commerce so let’s talk about how you got into the business you do.
Jamie: I think like many people I read the 4 Hour Workweek and thought “Oh, I can use the 4 Hour Workweek.” That’s how I actually got started. I don’t think that exists, however, and I worked at a wine shop and saw there was a need for a gifting liquor business, basically. So, that’s how I got started and I stayed at my job for the first few years, built a couple of different websites with a virtual assistant, developer and kind of learning as you go. I have the world’s worst, most ugly website, for sure. It was my first website and I didn’t know about hex codes or anything like that. I kept telling them gold, and they keep coming back with peach so I had a peach website.
I built on 3DCart and then finally on Magento. And I finally realized that I could not scale and work 40 hours a week or 50 or whatnot, so I quit my job and booked a vacation 6 months in advance so I would not be tempted to take another job, and basically gave it that much time to see if I could make it work a bit. And it worked! So that is how I kind of got started.
Mike: Interesting. I actually never knew about the 4 Hour Workweek impetus that got you started and that’s kind of funny to think about now because I think you’d be happy with the 4 Hour Workday at this point. So it’s interesting how things progressed.
So by that 6-month mark, let’s talk a little bit about when that was, what time frame are we talking about in terms of years and how much it was doing in revenue at that point.
Jamie: So I built it over summer while I was working at my other job. I wrote all of the descriptions, I worked with other people obviously, but I had a lot to do with it and launched on November 15th of 2012. I had no ads or any of that kind of thing; I just built the site and launched it. And in December sold 30,000. So that was my proof of concept because clearly I was doing something if I managed to get sales. Obviously that a gift business so it did not continue to sell 30k a month. That was just December.
Mike: Oh it was holiday time so it makes it easier obviously.
Jamie: Exactly. So did that the first December. Then I kind of crippled along like 1-2k a month past that and I think that next September is when I left my job, August or September. And I booked the trip for the following February or March so I couldn’t quit before then.
Mike: So where did you go?
Jamie: Thailand and Vietnam for 6 weeks.
Mike: Awesome, you know a lot of travelling so…
Mike: That’s ironically our next international trip, Thailand and Vietnam. I don’t know how that worked out, but very cool. So you had a one year clock basically, you started this thing on September of 2012, so by September of 2013, you left your job which is pretty awesome that you were able to do that within a year.
What was the first 6 to 12 months like after you quit the job? Did you have instant success and were able to support yourself immediately or were you living off of rice crackers and peanut butter and jelly?
Jaime: No I had saved up, I’m pretty responsible. So I had saved up and had money to live off of but fortunately, it was a — so I started as a dropshipping business and therefore it was profitable pretty early on because I didn’t carry any inventory or anything like that. So I was fortunate in that nature.
Jaime: So then next year, we kept growing and II started ranking really well for engraved gifts, engraved bourbon and certain engraved terms on google but we didn’t really offer that many things that were engraved and my lead time was like 2-3 weeks so in the current day and age that’s forever.
Jaime: That’s not even okay by anyone’s standards.
Mike: Yeah cause people ordering onDec 21 for their Christmas gifts like that isn’t gonna work.
Jaime: Exactly. So I was dealing with all the customer service so I saw all this firsthand and thought, okay for ranking for it we should just learn how to engrave cause at that point I was working with a store so I would send the order to them, they would engrave it by sending it out to an engraver, send it back to them, they would ship it out. It was just a really long process so I basically took all my savings at that point, bought an engraver, and convinced my sister to quit her job, and guaranteed her salary for the rest of the year if she would learn to engrave.
And both of us, like this machine showed up, we were like okay, it runs on… what’s CorelDraw? I guess we need to buy that software.
Jaime: We really didn’t think about this in a smart way at all.
Mike: You went about it the same way I would go about it, through the School of Hard Knocks, and just learn by baptism by fire.
Mike: That’s awesome. And so, the thing that was interesting, I didn’t realize the progression of that either cause even though we’ve known each other for so long, I didn’t know the early details. So you started more just as a pure selling liquor business and gift baskets and things like that but what ended up happening was the main business became engraving. Is that kinda how things shook out?
Jaime: It started with no personalization whatsoever and then we offered a couple of — no gift baskets or anything, it was just, we offered gift wrap so we worked with different retailers, and they have our packaging and such. And then, we added engraving and gift baskets after that.
Mike: Gotcha, okay.
Jaime: Same reason. We added a few and started ranking, so we added more.
Mike: Okay, yeah. It’s always interesting to me how often times, businesses are born out of other businesses. I certainly have been through this before where I was doing one thing thinking that was going to be the way I was going to make all my money and then you start realizing that there’s some other thing within the business which is where the niche is at and you kinda pivot over to that and it sounds like you’re just selling gift wrapped liquor but the reality was that the bigger business was in custom engraving and gift baskets and like a lot of good entrepreneurs, you just pivoted over to that and gave what your audience wanted and that became your main business.
Mike: Yeah and I mean the thing is, I’ve also been a customer of yours when I first really got to know you and saw some of the stuff that you’re doing. Its just such an awesome gift because I’m not really a big gifter and I think that there’s just too much consumerism in the world and people buy stuff at gift time for things that they don’t want or need and they give people things that they don’t necessarily want or need. I’ve just been not really a big gifter but when I do see something that’s awesome then I become a gifter cause I feel like its something that people will appreciate.
And liquor is something that everyone pretty much appreciates except obviously, people who might be an alcoholic, I can definitely understand that but its not even really the liquor inside that makes your product so amazing, its the custom messaging like you send something like “Congratulations on Graduating” maybe or on a promotion or in a case of the gifts that I’ve sent with your products, I just basically send a little message of “every time you drink from this bottle, I hope you think of me and it brings you happiness” or something like that.
Jaime: There’s that ego.
Mike: Yeah, well I know people forget about me easily so I have to bribe them to think about me. But I think its just a beautiful, its so beautifully done and its cool to see where things have gone and the thing that’s crazy about your business now because you’ve done such a great job with customer service and being on top of things, you have the unique problem of continuing to grow faster than you probably want to sometimes without even doing any or little advertising.
Jaime: Yeah, right now we’re working on systems and such to be able to scale better than we have in the past. So that’s our current model.
Mike: Yeah so let’s talk about that just a little bit because I mean, I know I’ve been through this, I know a lot of people that have passed the half a million-dollar mark or more that are listening to this. Everyone goes through these scaling issues so I think sometimes it's great to just hear other people that have been through the same things so you can just kinda hear someone else that have been through the same thing and realize that you’re not alone. You probably also have some really good wisdom, Jaime, on how to fix some of that. So let’s talk about, first, some of the early struggles you’ve had, some of the more recent struggles you’ve had with scaling and how you dealt with those things.
Jaime: I think that every business is just a series of lessons learnt and you learn all the lessons for whatever size you’re at, and then you basically outgrow them and have to learn them again, and for me at least, a big piece of that is being able to forgive yourself for the mistakes made and also being able to take what you’ve learnt and build upon that to get to the next level.
And then also being able to trust other people to kinda come in and build your business even further. So I think that’s the step that we’re at right now so it started with just me, and then my sister Cassie came on, I hired my first employee I think on Year 2. Besides my sister, there was a remote Customer Service who’s with me for a very long time, Becky, loved her dearly and kind of have grown since then. I think we’re up to 19 and kind of added in that middle management and I would say that’s the challenge we’re at right now. Because its difficult going from one manager to now having this like middle layer that’s a whole, another set of everything.
Mike: Yeah, I definitely find people to be the hardest part of scaling. I think that businesses that get it right are probably somewhat lucky, if they get it right on the first try at least they’re definitely lucky. Its really difficult to find that manager level person that you really click well with and then other key employees. We’ve had some luck with that and some bad luck with that, we’ve had really good luck with the COO that we hired, I mean, she’s been absolutely amazing but we’ve had bad luck with a key marketing person role and when you’re a small company, the impact that one employee can make can be pretty astronomical right?
Mike: So right now, as of recording this, I know that you just hired a new manager so let’s talk about her role and some of the things that you’re looking to get off your plate and what you think that your role will look like moving forward as soon as you make these changes.
Jaime: So we’re practising the EOS model and Valerie just came on board and she’s been really, I mean its very new still, but really instrumental and kind of defining our meetings, our purpose, our rocks, our scorecards, all that and just people don’t listen to me as well anymore cause I have too many ideas. You know you move on to the next one and they’re like “oh Jaime’s got another idea” so kind of putting that other manager in place if you will, as an integrator role is, I’m really excited about it. So we’ve seen a lot of progress just even in a couple of weeks, more than the last couple of months in my opinion so its really exciting to be at that point for us, at least.
Mike: Yeah, very cool.
Jaime: And just kind of seeing here’s what we’re doing and taking a step back from it, and here’s where we wanna be and how are we going to get there.
Mike: Yeah and for those who don’t know what EOS is, that’s the Entrepreneurial Operating System. We’ve recorded several episodes dedicated to this, the book is called Traction – we’ll link to that in the show notes. Its interesting, it seems like you’re going through a similar evolution that I went through about a year and a half ago or two years ago, when we were first going through this and we brought in our COO and put her in the integrator role.
I think the biggest thing that that’s helped with in our business is it disciplines the ideas because if you do planning a year and then a quarter at a time out, when you’ve mapped out your quarter and have a new idea, you have to bring that to your COO and tell them, “we wanna integrate this new idea into our quarterly plans and let’s blow up what we agreed on what we were going to do”, it better be a damn important or good idea so it stops you from 99% of the things that I think of that I would have disrupted our whole company to go do, because that’s how I ran the company. I had to think twice about it because I had to get someone else to buy into that and almost get approval from them I guess, if you will.
She stops that, she prevents me from doing that for the most part and if she’s cool with it, it’s typically because she also agrees that that’s something that is big enough that we do want to change things but what its done for us, is its allowed our team to know what they’re working on for the next 3 months every quarter and so they’re able to stay more focused as well, and I have to stay out of their way and let them accomplish what I’ve asked them to accomplish and lo and behold, magically, more things actually get done which is a pretty cool result to see.
And then, for me in that point, then it becomes infectious for me and makes me want to continue down that path. Because after you start seeing results from something, it makes you better as well so I hope you go through a similar progression because that’s what happened with me.
Jaime: Yeah, I’m super excited.
Mike: Yeah, so what are some other big initiatives in things that you’re working on in the business? I know you’ve been working on some personal development stuff; you just went out to a conference for this, you’ve been reading some books, what are some other cool tips that you’ve been working on?
Jaime: Let’s see, so I did go out to Arizona for PickleCon, I use DesignPickle which I really think has great systems and part of EOS and part of Traction and part of, I think, any business and any life is creating really good systems, so I went out with a couple of employees, met Rona (sp?) who’s worked for me for years but I’d never met face to face, for the first time, and met Valerie who had just onboarded and one of the things that we learned there was the Core Four, so its basically similar to Miracle Morning which is another name for it, getting up and quick meditation, quick movement, quick– certain things you do in the morning, drink some green juice, move around a little, tell some people you love them, those types of things, but I’m not at a Core Four, I’m at a solid Core Two right now, but its really — I like the concept, because it starts you day off right and positive and on the right foot if you will.
Mike: Well cool, I’ve actually read the book Miracle Morning and I adopted some things myself from that, I’m not a 3:30 or 4am riser, like the book kind of suggests, getting up super early but I do try to do some stuff in the morning that I didn’t do in the past and it sounds like that’s another concept that you’ve got to introduced to as well, it seems like its picking up more steam and if you’re not a morning person, like I’m not, it takes some time to integrate these things into your life, but over time, its definitely made a positive impact.
Jaime: Yeah, definitely nothing that can hurt you, that’s for sure.
Mike: Yeah, so I wanna switch gears completely cause one of the things that have always fascinated me about you and your business is the holiday season. And all of us go through a crazy holiday rush, I would imagine that most people listening to this, I mean, our sales have always been owed to the holidays but no one that I know is more extreme than you and its even more unique because you’re customizing basically everything that runs out the door. So it isn’t like, our holiday rush is basically just bigger numbers on a piece of paper like that’s what it really feels like in difference nowadays because we use Amazon for fulfillment versus the earlier years when we were dealing with all that ourselves and it was super crazy and hectic but I am so proud of you, every time I get — I look forward to the holidays for no other reason than to see your videos that you put out for us on the Slack channel of how much stuff is going out the door at your warehouse.
Mike: And I finally got a chance to see your warehouse in person, and its even more impressive now after seeing the size of the warehouse compared to the throughput…
It’s so small…
Mike: Yeah, its nuts! So let’s talk about this for a minute, because its one of the things that you’ve been able to overcome in terms of adversity and handling that and you definitely need to be a customer of your own products I think when January comes around because it is hectic but how do you deal with that? Its a crazy period for you every year.
Jaime: It is. So we actually try to– we do everything to try to get everyone to shop ahead of time but no one does. So everyone should read Giftology, and not send gifts during Christmas, and during other times of the year. And anyone who has tips for me on how to get people to order earlier, feel free to send them over. But, yeah everyone’s like “oh, Black Friday! Cyber Monday!”
I’m like, “Ha ha ha, that’s the beginning, that’s nothing.” and it kinda goes up for us in December. So we don’t really do any sales or anything that month because we don’t, we’re trying to slow things down if anything else. And then, as you saw, our warehouse is 2400 sq. ft., so pretty small. And I think last December we did 12,000 packages in December. So we are looking for a better, bigger building and we’re going to buy our next door neighbour. We’re in that waiting phase right now, we just kind of, have made it work if you will.
I actually have a food truck looking truck out front, and we make the baskets out of that now and I rented a larger house, I use that for storage, my furniture goes into my bedroom during the holidays and we work out of here a little bit, and then, my sister has a larger piece of land, my family’s from Miami, and we put a 40 ft. container in her property that we keep all the stuff that I buy from China in, and then every time she drives up from Miami, she brings a load. So we’ve made it work, but yeah its a busy time of year but we try to make it fun though, so we cater lunch everyday, we do Starbucks runs, we don’t do Soda but we do so much La Croix during December, so its just non-stop snacks, just sugar, fun stuff and lots of caffeine.
So we try to make it fun, so yeah. Its just a very fun time of year, because you’re sending all of these gifts, you’re really trying to get them out on time, you’re reading all these messages that people are sending, like you just get that really giving, caring, kind of vibe with all of that going on as well.
Mike: Yeah, and so this is one of these things where its hard to explain this on the podcast because I’m talking about a video, but you send out a video every year about the hectic-ness on your busiest day, and its, I mean, palate fulls of stuff and again, you’re on the 2400 sq. ft. warehouse, we’re on 3000 sq. ft., we do a fraction of the business that you do, and I thought it was always crazy and hectic here and I see that operation and the thing that super impressed me about it…
Jaime: Of coloring books!
Mike: Yeah, we sell coloring books.
Jaime: Flat, unbreakable…
Mike: Yeah, yeah, no customization machine, no that packaging that you guys have that’s really cool, where you like, inject it with air and it helps protect things. I mean, it really is a testament to what you’ve been able to do there and again your resiliency and just adapting to everything. There’s tons of stuff we don’t have time to talk about on the podcast, but I mean, there’s been a lot of curveballs thrown your way, more than most people I know.
And I know you’ve been stressed through all of them, it’d be disingenuous to say that its been no problem for you but you’ve dealt with all of them and always figured a way to persevere through all of them which is amazing. I mean, most people would have given up by now. And you continue to run an incredible business that continues to grow, and that people, I think, are genuinely happy to be customers of because, and I know, because I can speak for myself when it comes to that, I mean again, the products are beautiful.
In fact, I would encourage people to visit SpiritedGifts.com, do that now before the holidays and order some friends and family some gifts for birthdays or anniversaries, or possibly early Christmas gifts, or something but you know, just absolutely beautiful, custom engraved, liquor bottles and these are pretty liquor bottles to begin with, but the way that you do the engraving with the sandblasting. It has like a smokey, etched look, and I think its just beautiful. Again, you can send really personalized message to people and things that they’ll treasure and keep versus just giving them a bottle of wine, they’ll never think about it again. They’ll get a gift like that from you and keep it on their shelf for months or years. Or maybe never open it and keep it as a keepsake and I think that that’s really cool.
Jaime: Yeah totally. If you put someone’s name on something with your logo, they’ll just display your logo forever.
Mike: Right, its free advertising, so here you go! I need to put a Colorit Logo on a bottle, and just send it to you so you can just keep it in your house and it can torture you for the rest of your life.
Jaime: Exactly! It’ll just blend in with everything else.
Mike: Awesome Jaime, we try to keep these to about 30 minutes, probably time to wrap up but is there any last thoughts or comments you wanted to make before we sign off and run into the sunset?
Jaime: No, thanks for having me on and thanks for doing all that you do.
Mike: I appreciate it and thanks for being you. You’re a good friend to have especially on the years that I’m drinking cause you always bring the party with you.
Jaime: Its my job requirement!
Mike: You know I’m a good friend cause I’m still sticking around during these dry years, so you really are a friend, its not just for the liquor.
Mike: Thanks Jaime!
Jaime: Have a good one.
Mike: And that’s a wrap folks, Jaime thank you again so much for coming on the podcast, I’m reaching through the intertubes and giving you a virtual hug to thank you for coming on the podcast, its always great talking to you and looking forward to catching up in person again soon, and until the next episode again everybody, happy selling and we’ll talk to you soon!